Indymedia Dublin Meeting

by Chris Murray - The Unmanageables Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:22

I propose, as a regular contributor

an independent minutes taker and an agreed women's grassroot mediator.
otherwise the issue of gender balance will not be addressed in an open and mature fashion.

Also I want to add to the agenda under AOB, the continous blocking of proposed
female editors and strategies for dealing with harassment/abuse.

regards, Chris Murray.

by pat c Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:32

calling for an independent minutes taker is not helpful. it implies that you mistrust the present indymedia ctivists. Do you truly believe that a false account of the meetings proceedings would be produced?

Regarding women editors I agree it is appalling that none of the indy editors are female. but not all blockings of prospective female editors have been unfair. one person in particular abuses anyone who disagrees with her. i would not trust her as an editor.

i think indymedia.ie is suffering from institutional sexism rather than any particular editor being sexist or mispgynist.

by chris murray Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:36

pat- I certainly do not, but there is an issue of gender balance and I was at the last meeting
and the minute taker had to leave. I do not imply, as well you know.
I am stating that I believe this is a crucial meeting and an independent minute taker should be
in attendance.

also, given that some women who regularly contribute have children, I am assuming that
it has been organised in a child friendly manner.

as to the mediator- this is important-it is about neutrality.

by James Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:37

The meeting is an open one and regular contributors to indymedia as well as those interested in helping to do the background organisation are welcome. The meeting will probably just use volunteers to minute, but anybody who comes is welcome to take as comprehensive notes as they wish. This isn’t Galway District Court!

Secondly, the original proposal for the meeting suggested that attendees contribute €5, which partly goes towards contributing towards the cost of attendees paying somebody to mind their child for the afternoon. Probably this figure can be revised as appropriate. It would be handy to know in advance if people with kids will be wanting to avail of this, so we know how much, if anything, is needed. You can do this via the imc-ireland list or by the ordinary contact form.

by Miriam Cotton Mon Sep 11, 2006 13:00

I dont know if the agenda is set in stone but, under Item 2, is the discussion going to look at the issue of sexism within the Indymedia.ie collective?

Isnt it time that a meeting was held in another location besides Dublin? Why not Galway, Meath, Rossport or Cork e.g. If there were a schedule of meetings planned well in advance in different locations, people would be able to make arrangements to get there. As it happens, the meetings are all arranged exclusively to suit the people living in Dublin, with short enough notice for those who have to make child care arrangements and stay away over night in order to attend. How many on the collective (approved/not approved/rejected) are from outside Dublin?

by Clare Mon Sep 11, 2006 13:16 Dublin

"2) Women and Indymedia (Originally based on absence of newswire category which has since been introduced, but well worth discussing.)"

Just to clarify, the topic that has been added to indymedia. ie is called "gender and sexuality". While this is a welcome addition it must be recognised that although it may be some what related it is clearly different to the much needed topic on feminism/womens rights/anti-patriarchy.

by James Mon Sep 11, 2006 13:39

Discussing sexism under item 2 would make sense as would Clare’s suggestion.
-----------------

The meeting was first proposed back in June and the proposal was passed in on 27th July, so there was a fair period of notice. It’s primarily about running indymedia which is why it was proposed and discussed on the lists, where those with an active interest in running tend to reside.

Secondly, it was also proposed – and agreed – that having the meeting in Dublin would make sense given the number of people involved in running it who live there. However as this obviously places a burden on those travelling it was agreed that everybody would contribute towards the travelling expenses for folks as appropriate (similar to the method used for contributing towards childcare). Again, it would be helpful if those interested used the contact form to give us some advance warning.

Finally, there is nothing stopping those interested in this indymedia - or indeed another one - from organising a meeting anywhere in the country.

by Chris Murray - The Unmanageables Mon Sep 11, 2006 13:45

I would like to add that no-one has an ownership of the IMC ethos.

but maybe outreach and setting up local eds, rural eds and of
course tech collaboration/outreach for womyn.

some of us do it online with global, reduces the personal contact aspect.

James open meetings with a roving mike and no table separation makes
people physically comfartable-depending on the size of the venue.

by wageslave Mon Sep 11, 2006 14:54

I think the topic gender/sexuality is a sensible category and covers all bases.
If indy is to be pressured into having a seperate "womens rights" category then I insist on there being a "mens rights" category too. It's only fair and it would be sexist to do otherwise.

See where this is going ?

The fact is that if an editor edits with balance,awareness, intelligence and sensitivity to all then it doesn't matter what gender they are. Choosing a bad editor under pressure for the sake of being seen to be PC (i.e. tokenism) would be a disservice to all genders alike. Better to encourage lots of women/LGBT to get involved actively in posting to indy, have a transparent and fair electoral system then let good editors from all gender bases rise up to the top on merit alone. The key to a fair and balanced indy editorial group is a transparent and fair electoral system BASED ON MERIT ALONE. There are difficulties in having a fair selection system but if all genders are made to feel equally comfortable and participation is high among all genders then good people should naturally surface from all groups.
how about some sort of post rating system combined with number of posts to make someone eligible for moderating (regardless of gender) as is the case on some BBS systems. perhaps 500 posts and a sanity rating of 75% where each post/comment can be rated for sanity :)

might i also make a few more suggestions
(1)
that dodgy posts are no longer deleted or hidden but moved to a seperate area of the site (a "playpen"??) where they don't interfere with the high quality element of the site and where they can be easily seen if people wish to do so, perhaps only by paid subscribers to indy. (perhaps a token e5?)
That way, we "nutters" can still have our posts seen but would have to contribute something to the running of indy to do so. This would then provide a non corporate revenue stream for indy and would still be preferable to the current "disappearing posts" subjective censorship scenario.
It would help end the feeling that If posts don't quite reach the subjective standards of perfection required by whatever editor happens to be at work, they will disappear with little trace. Sure it's open publishing but the lists system is very clunky, frustrating and unsatifsctory. The fact is, other indys don't censor and things work out ok for them. This (playpen) idea might be an interesting compromise and might help support indy financially
(2)
In practice the whole lists thing is very clunky and slow at best. A simple BBS system ( with logging )would be so much faster and more accessible. Even in parallell with the current system, it would be a good thing.
A BBS for post discussion is available technology and easily set up and would provide better transparency and editorial accountability. It would provide a whole other dimension to indy too!! It might also serve to increase confidence in indy's integrity and neutrality :) and might also make the tireless background work performed by the indy editorial staff more visible and hence better appreciated. :)

just my 2c worth

by Robot Mon Sep 11, 2006 14:58

"perhaps 500 posts and a sanity rating of 75% where each post/comment can be rated for sanity :) "

Can I rate myself as many times as I like? I'll get working on the bot right now so.

by Mark G Mon Sep 11, 2006 15:12

"that dodgy posts are no longer deleted or hidden but moved to a seperate area of the site (a "playpen"??) where they don't interfere with the high quality element of the site and where they can be easily seen if people wish to do so, perhaps only by paid subscribers to indy. (perhaps a token e5?)"

Deleted/hidden posts can be easily seen. They are archived here
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-ireland-newswire/

by Another Robot Mon Sep 11, 2006 15:17

It would help end the feeling that If posts don't quite reach the subjective standards of perfection required by whatever editor happens to be at work, they will disappear with little trace.

Helping to end feelings? What about helping to end feelings that Indy is a valuable shared resource (with approximately 300,000 eyeballs at times) which is exploited by narcissitic abusers that shout louder than anyone else. Indy has had amazing stories covered with higher accuracy than the corporate media and trying to massage the sensibilities of patent loons is an insult and abuse of the majority of sane contributors.

The fact is, other indys don't censor and things work out ok for them.
The fact is that you haven't provided any facts or examples to back that up. The fact is that Indy does not censor (except for racist, fascist etc). Why not ask a certain rightwing bulletin board for a contribution to provide a "non-corporate revenue stream"?

In practice the whole lists thing is very clunky and slow at best. A simple BBS system ( with logging )would be so much faster and more accessible.
Much faster for what? Making loads of posts without spending time thinking about them? What examples are there of editorial decision making teams running on bulletin board software? What about other large scale projects involving people interacting primarily over the net?

A BBS for post discussion is available technology and easily set up and would provide better transparency and editorial accountability.
How?

Most of your post would qualify as "unsupported assertion" at this stage. Waving technology at the human problem of co-operation doesn't solve it in all cases. It might do, but it's got to be thought out carefully and should have some basis in evidence from other situations.

by M Cotton Mon Sep 11, 2006 15:26

Glad to hear sexism is not ruled out under point 2 of the agenda.

Anyone who has challenged sexism on Indymedia.ie is labelled a bully and an abuser. That is intimidation and the issue is a matter of serious concern on the Global Indymedia women's list at the moment. That is not a 'threat'.

For the record, the womens list is the place where those of us who have been discriminated against have taken our complaints and others who are worried about it have registered there too. There are currently five women from Ireland using the list, so far as I am aware. In doing so we have been careful to acknowledge all that is positive about this newswire, while abhoring the latent, impenetrable sexism which so many of you are seemingly incapable of getting your heads around. We have been able to compare notes with women from all around the world many of whom are reporting identical treatment in other countries. There is particular interest in the Irish situation because, whatever you choose to tell yourselves, the sexism is so striking. I have posted copies of exchanges with different people (unedited and complete with the worst examples of my own anger in order to be fair) and have had a flood of outraged support from many women - some privately and many on the list. I am also in touch with two academics, one in San Francisco and one in Japan. Having looked over the material which I forwarded to them, one of among many comments they made back to me was that I was, in fact, being much too appeasing towards the sexists on the collective. These are experienced IMC and media specialists, one of whom strongly feels that Indymedia.ie should be made an example of. The other comment which has been made several times is that it is clear that the Ireland collective (approved members), just from the tone of the way we are communicated with alone, does not respect its female contributors as much as it does the men.

Rsearch on IMC and sexism has revealed that you are playing to type in Ireland - placing technical expertise above other considerations which automatically bars women who, for reasons beyond their control, are more likely not to be as au fait with. When I told members of the global list that I had been accused of sexism on this list for making that observation, they were astounded, not least because they understand, unlike you, that I am describing a symptom of educational sexism. REcognition of the exact point I made on the editorial list has been a major consideration for IMC women. It is bizarre to accuse me of sexism merely for describing a symptom of it. When I further told them that same bizarre accusation of sexism against me was also deployed as a reason for barring me as an editor..... Let's just say it didnt go down very well. The whole way women are educated and directed while they grow up has almost guaranteed that we dont do tech as well as most men - especially for people in my age group - it may be less true of younger women. Lack of technical expertise or aptitude is not seen as a bar to being an editor among collectives who have been prepared to work this issue through. The question is, what is there to value and welcome from women about the things we CAN do - some of which includes things that men are not very good at ,for all the same reasons. Some people do tech and dont write. Some write and dont do tech. Some can do a bit of both. We need each other and it is not a big deal to work it out, if people are really interested in being fair.

There is little point in organising a meeting out of Dublin if those who have control over the site do not attend.

Of course most of the contributors come from Dublin: that'll be because that's where all the meetings take place. If you are serious about being a national newswire then you owe it to people who have taken you seriously (and helped to build your readership and reputation) around the country to extend some courtesy and practical support of this sort. Anyway, I thought it was not supposed to be about the numbers. If one angry man can block a woman as an editor against the wishes of several women, then it follows that meeting venues ought not to be decided on the basis of where most people live, either.

Among all the women I have spoken to and shown evidence of this situaiton to, only one has disagreed with me and she is a member of the Indymedia.ie collective herself.

by Interested Mon Sep 11, 2006 15:36

I'd like to see what has been said and to make some contributions. Please tell me how to subscribe. Also, who is the woman that disagreed with you?

by Libertine Mon Sep 11, 2006 15:38

"Among all the women I have spoken to and shown evidence of this situaiton to, only one has disagreed with me and she is a member of the Indymedia.ie collective herself. "

There are no women editors so I think you have got something mixed up there. In any case you seem to believe thay this particular woman is plotting against you. I am sure the men have brainwashed her.

by iosaf Mon Sep 11, 2006 15:40

Perhaps you'd like to explain that one.

The women's list is open to all women who are invovled in indymedia worldwide. You goto the indymedia homepage (where the franchise begins) here http://www.indymedia.org and go to "get involved". There are several Irish women on the list.

by Interested Mon Sep 11, 2006 15:45

I did as suggested and went to the get involved link and there I saw that its being closed down and that there is no link to a womens list. Could you be more specific please?

by Chekov Mon Sep 11, 2006 15:47

For a start it's simply not true to say that other IMC's don't 'censor' content. As far as I know every IMC that tried to practice absolute 'free speech' died within months. They get engulfed by spam and offensive content unbelievably quickly which drowns everything else out. It's a simple fact that in the time that it takes to write something properly researched and with a bit of thought, one can copy and paste hundreds of articles or produce dozens of thought-free off-the-top-of-my-head rants. At the very least editorial guidelines are required in order to level the playing field to allow properly thought out articles to have a chance.

Having said that, I'm entirely open to the idea of making it more obvious to people how to find the reasons for editorial action. I've proposed moving some editorial discussions to the site but these proposals have been blocked.

On the other hand, as the robot above says, we don't have any evidence that indymedia users see 'censorship' as a problem. In general, 99% of the complaints of censorship come from people who either:
a) just don't like indymedia and aren't trying to be constructive at all (trolls)
or
b) believe that they should have a right to post whatever they fancy irrespective of the goals of the site or the indymedia project or the guidelines (narcissists)

To back this up, I can point to the fact that of the various complaints that we receive, there have been virtually no attempts to suggest modifications to the editorial guidelines and many don't even bother to read them. Furthermore, the only piece of evidence that we have (a survey carried out a year ago) identified trolling as the biggest problem on indymedia - which is entirely the opposite conclusion.

Still, I suspect that there are a number of people who are put off indymedia by the fact that the editorial machinations appear to be arbitrary and obscure to inexperienced users and that we should make an effort to make the operation of the rules to be more transparently obvious to users. Although, we would have to be very careful to do so in such a way as not to provide greater opportunities to the trolls and narcissists to waste our precious volunteered time.

Finally, a persistent complaint that I have about such proposals is that the people who make them tend to treat indymedia as a service that exists to fulfill their demands. This is a manifestation of the consumer mentality that crops up again and again in our society. If you think that indymedia's editorial discussion should be chanelled into a bulletin board system - DIY. All of the content is copyleft, you are free to take the content and channel it into any old software you want and do whatever you want with it. You can even set up your own indymedia site with a full copy of our archives if you want and run it with whatever editorial guidelines you want. We are volunteers and, to put it simply, if we don't like an idea we're not going to spend our precious free time implementing it.

It's interesting that of all of the people who complained about the lack of a gender category, not a single one of them went to the trouble of going through the archives to suggest articles to be re-categorised to populate the category, despite several requests for help on the lists. Indymedia is a participatory project and we've always had a DIY ethic. There is no point in moaning about problems if you're not willing to help out with solutions. It's very easy to complain about what other people should be doing, when you're expected to do it yourself, it concentrates the mind and mitigates against ill-thought out solutions.

by haha Mon Sep 11, 2006 15:48

in fact when u look at the countries The Republic Of Ireland aint even listed as far as i can see

by peripheraldisorder Mon Sep 11, 2006 15:51

i dont think you are achieving anything by petty comments on the newswire chris murray, it is obvious that the indymedia collective has orgainsed this meeting to deal with any relevant issues within the indymedia collective, if you think gender imbalance is one of them then go along and voice your discontent as opossed to provocating an argument that ought to be held in a more formal context.

by wageslave Mon Sep 11, 2006 15:55

robot,
My intention was to stimulate discussion not enter a pissing contest. Can we alter the tone and make it more constructive?.

If you have things figured out so well then Lets have some constructive suggestions from you rather than just having a go and scoring points.

Sure I agree my suggestions aren't perfect. But if you are going to go out of your way to point that out then please, go all the way. I welcome your suggestions on how they could be improved or offer some better ones. Let's go somewhere constructive with this

The current system has a few problems. I'm not alone in thinking this.
So tell me, how do YOU think you could improve on the current system??

by Chekov Mon Sep 11, 2006 15:55

"i don't understand what is meant by "extending the indymedia franchise" Chekov."

I don't mean anything by it. I didn't compile the agenda, it was compiled by suggestions on the editorial list, in a thread which anybody was free to respond to and to add items to. I assume that whoever added it will make it clear at the meeting.

by Another Robot Mon Sep 11, 2006 16:03

So tell me, how do YOU think you could improve on the current system??

The editorial list should be stricter in enforcing standards for communication by email which are at this stage widely understood and evolved over approximately three decades. All subscribers should be required to acknowledge that they understand and agree to abide by these minima.

Voluminous and repetitive postings should be discouraged by some agreed set of rules which fairly allow right of reply, but prevent swamping of the list by bullies.

Editors should grow a spine and be less passive in accepting bullying.

Finally, it's weird that you'd see disagreement with you as a pissing contest. It's not, it's disagreement. Don't think of everything in terms of your ego.

by Chekov Mon Sep 11, 2006 16:03

Miriam, although you are a very good writer and a very good contributor, I feel that you are prone to give very one sided summaries of debates that you are involved in. Some of the various claims that you make above are simply not true. For example, you were not ever accused of sexism for making such an observation, you were accused of sexism (rightly imho) for using gender based put-downs against women who disagreed with you on two occassions. From this observation, I sincerely doubt that the discussion on the women's list is anything approaching a fair or balanced exposition of the situation.

Wageslave / robot. I agree that robot's response was too defensive, but I hope that you understand that we have become accustomed to various people throwing malicious and false accusations against indymedia and using any old thing with which to beat us, simply because they didn't get their way in some debate or other.

by myself Mon Sep 11, 2006 16:07

You said
"If indy is to be pressured into having a seperate "womens rights" category then I insist on there being a "mens rights" category too. It's only fair and it would be sexist to do otherwise."

It is not true that treating people the same is treating them equally. There is still a wage gap, a sexual division of labour, 90% of the land in Ireland is owned by men, women do two thirds of the worlds work and recieve 10% of the world's wages, there are no female indymedia editors, women make up only 13% of the Dail... blahblah. I could go on and on...

To say we have to treat everyone the same, men's rights category if there is a women's rights category, does not take into account the differences. Women are still not treated equally to men and that's just a fact. Until we are, unfortunately, there is a need to draw attention to the fact. Even if that means having a special women's rights section, or anti--patriarchy I think is a good suggestion.

The editors thing is disgraceful, I'm shocked to hear there are no women. It's good that you're talking about it though.

by toe-tape - the unmans Mon Sep 11, 2006 16:11

the links are;

imc-womyn@lists.indymedia.org

http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-womyn

itsa breathing and collaborative space.
Respect,

unless you really want to know whose on their period-like the footie.

ps: it comes in all colurs. look at the other sites. anti-repression, anti-patriarchy, gay rights-working categories.
gender is not black n white

by iosaf Mon Sep 11, 2006 16:12

over the last year I have consistently raised the hope of a 2nd indymedia site for Ireland during which time I have directed many female contributors to the Women's global list where all accounts are they are very happy.

Now chekov if I suggested "extending the franchise" but not quite in those words - & I am as everyone knows in Barcelona whence I never come to Dublin -


How can I explain what I meant at the meeting?

by Interested Mon Sep 11, 2006 16:13

I followed that link and it says the list doesn't exist

by Libertine Mon Sep 11, 2006 16:14

"Editors should grow a spine and be less passive in accepting bullying."

Maybe what you see as bullying is merely disagreement. See your own comments below and check out the beam in your own eye.

"Finally, it's weird that you'd see disagreement with you as a pissing contest. It's not, it's disagreement. Don't think of everything in terms of your ego."

by chris murray - unmans Mon Sep 11, 2006 16:15

i have two printouts of articles censored by indy.ie

by me.

about gender and abuse

by Fed Up Mon Sep 11, 2006 16:19

'The editors thing is disgraceful, I'm shocked to hear there are no women. It's good that you're talking about it though.'

But if anyone tries to raise it on the Editorial List they are told there is no problem. The real problem is that the existing editors are not prepared to stand up to the one woman hating male editor. This one editor has managed on his own to block a woman editor and has given no reasons or made up reasons for doing so.

by wageslave Mon Sep 11, 2006 16:23

as usual, fair comment chekov. I consider you one of the more balanced editors on indy. I do think your attitude to contributors could be a little less derisory though. ;-)

The guidelines ARE fairly sensible, its the subjective interpretation of them that can be a problem. This would be less so if moderators actions were more in the public eye. This would "focus the mind" and make people think a little harder before deleting something.

Perhaps there is a case to be made for a fleshing out of the what the spirit of each of the guidelines is to assist editors in their implementation.

I'd be happy to help out in some way if I could. Indymedia is a worthwhile endeavour.

by pat c Mon Sep 11, 2006 16:24

not everything written by me is a work of literature, sometimes they even deserve to be hidden and sadly the same is true of your goodself. maybe there were sound reasons for the hiding of your articles.

please name the articles and the reasons given for hiding them.

by Interested Mon Sep 11, 2006 16:24

"I have directed many female contributors to the Women's global list where all accounts are they are very happy."

But where is it? None of the links given above point to it and your description was vague and pointed to a page that says its out of date

by iosaf Mon Sep 11, 2006 16:24

http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-women
You have to introduce yourself. You also must be a woman, grrrl or womyn. Calling youself "sofia" like i do is not enough. Those who run the women's list are already a bit concerned at irish indymedia users - & irish men pretending to be women - so don't abuse their global space. Ireland has already attracted a bit of attention-

which brings me to another thing I'd like to raise at the moment : a suggestion I made in April on the lists that we ask people to introduce themselves on our lists. The adminstrator said he doubted such a usual indymedia practise would suit indymedia ireland users. Following that indymedia "netiquette" an editor of Barcelona indymedia who is spending increasing time in Dublin and has been making contact with political groups in Ireland since Springtime asked to join the list. She was refused / removed.
The only person to be refused.
We never took any democratic decision to allow such a thing to occur. did we? Who is going to take the responsibility for that? We did talk about removing the druid from the list during the Summer - that's something else. SO at end there are many issues of illegitimate decision making & non democratic behaviour in the indymedia ireland world as it is currently shaped
We ( those who are prepared to work & set up a 2nd or 3rd side will have to deal with all these problems as well. But we're going to start from the very beginning the tabula rasa . Coz Sucking teeth just doesn't work. & then in time we'll have wee little indymedia groups all over Erin.

by Chekov Mon Sep 11, 2006 16:25

iosaf: "How can I explain what I meant at the meeting?"

You can post a proposal to the editorial list as usual with as much explanation as you want. You could also find somebody who agrees with you and who will put forward the position for you. Or you could come up with some other method. Or do you want me to pay for your plane ticket?

chris:

You should know well that our editorial guidelines generally restrict discussion of the guidelines themselves to the lists. Just ignoring this fact and claiming that there is some special censorship going on against you is not at all constructive.

by Another Robot Mon Sep 11, 2006 16:33

Maybe what you see as bullying is merely disagreement. See your own comments below and check out the beam in your own eye.

That's possible. So it'd be really good for people to discuss what constitutes bullying behaviour at the meeting and to come with a way of dealing with it. That way, the individual idiosyncracies of you and me don't get to determine the behaviour that everyone on the list has to put up with.

by chris - the unmans Mon Sep 11, 2006 16:33

The article was about two men taking on two women from the right.
the other was about domestic violence.

I have had people read them-guess what you made up the guidelines, not me.
they breach nothing put 'em up/

by Another Robot Mon Sep 11, 2006 16:34

Discussion of bullying and other disruptive behaviour, especially on the mailing lists, and specific ways to try and remedy this problem.

by Chekov Mon Sep 11, 2006 16:37

Iosaf. I don't believe that this woman was actually blocked from joining the list - if she was it was a very serious infraction by whoever carried it out and I for one would like to get to the bottom of it. Can you come up with evidence / details of her being blocked from joining? You will understand that since you have a long track record of spreading inaccurate smears about indymedia.ie and its editors I won't just take your word for it.

I sent these proposals to the editorial list and I intend to propose them at the meetings:

editorial lists
- people must post an introduction before they are allowed to sign up (they
should say why they are participating but do not have to divulge personal details)
- we will elect a group of moderators - wherever possible these moderators
will not be editors

posting rules
- no personal abuse / threats etc.
- it is a working list, all posts should be directly relevant to editorial /
policy matters
- no more than 3 posts in one day on any particular topic / 5 in total
- posts should be formatted according to standard email list norms (links to relevant posts, identifiable replys, no
top-posting, etc)
- it is the responsibility of posters to ensure that they obey the rules, not the moderators.

list abuse
- moderators will apply first a warning. Second a temporary ban, third a
permanent ban
- new subscribers will be on probation for 2 weeks - can be banned instantly
at discretion of moderators.

editors
- end the 'black ball' system of editorial appointment. Something like the
following: new editors need either:
a) 3 approvals and no objections (as currently)
or
b) approvals from 50% +1 of all editors
- introduce a recall mechanism (using similar criteria as to appointment)
- automatic lapse in editorship after one month of non-activity

wider collective
- introduce some sort of electoral college system to give a voice to groups
of contributors, moderators, real world groups, not-dublin groups, etc...

by pat c Mon Sep 11, 2006 16:38

You are not being very helpful by posting in unpunctuated sentences.

Also, would you please at least give the titles of the hidden articles and the reasons given for hiding them.

by Chekov Mon Sep 11, 2006 16:44

The very first line of the most recent article read as follows:

Today was notable on the newswire for the two sustained attacks on working women politicians, the crucified Harney photographic enhancement seems to have disappeared from the opinion and analysis section.

This alone breaks three guidelines. It refers to a hidden post (guideline 16). It is about editorial actions (guideline 15). And it is a comment on recent articles (guideline 1). You explicitly refered to an article having 'disappeared' and any familiarity with the guidelines would have led you to know that we always remove such content (for very good reason).

Rather than going to the trouble of seeking clarification on the editorial list, you just posted a threat that you were compiling a dossier. You didn't even bother to argue the point that your article was within the guidelines.

by M Cotton Mon Sep 11, 2006 16:49

No, you're wrong there, Chekov. A certain retired editor, who you know I love very dearly, accused me of sexism when I posted the observation about women and tech expertise. He subsequently referred to it as an additional reason for blocking me when I was proposed as an editor for the second time. Nobody challenged him about that on the list -except me of course.

Witth regard to the other point you make - the IMC research has shown this pehnomenon - the 'loyal' woman who comes out of the woodwork to 'proove' that concerns about sexism must be unfounded' is well known and the examples I gave - there were two - were thought to be classic - the way they were expressed and